Hangin' With Our Enemies

This is in response to someone who opposed Mennonite Central Committee meeting with the President of Iran because he threatened Israel and because he is a "liar". Posted in the Anabaptist Network Group in Facebook:

If the Iranian president was a follower of Jesus, then we would be right to cut him off, according to I Corinthians 5. However, I Corinthians 5 has other instructions for the Iranian president-- that we are not to cut ourselves off from the world, no matter what they claim or threaten or do.

Spreading the gospel means to keep lines open with those we do not agree with, and this means listening to those whose views we find repugnant. If we do not listen, then we have no right to speak. If we are to be like Jesus, we must provide an open context, even for those we disagree with, so that we can talk about Jesus.

This is exactly what Jimmy Carter did when he invited Began and Sadat to Camp David. He remained humble (as President of the U.S!) and passed messages between them until they were ready to speak to each other. And he shared the good news of Jesus to both of them. And in that context, Anwar Sadat decided to follow Jesus as best he understood. And so he pursued peace with Israel.

To share the gospel means that we get put in uncomfortable circumstances, talking to people we might find difficult or even distasteful. My ministry is to the homeless, some of whom are theives, liars, drug dealers, etc. I have been stolen from and lied to and threatened. But that doesn't stop my relentless pursuit to love those who have harmed me.

It's just what Jesus has called us to do.

Steve K

An Example of a New Economy

God's economy is to grant to other's what they need and they in turn would grant what we need.

There is a coffee shop in Seattle that is a step between captialism and God's ideal: The no-price coffee shop.

Check it out:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2003558690_terrabite06e.html

Church Tradition and Jesus

This was posted in MennoDiscuss under "How To Avoid The Slow Fade".

The Question: How can the Mennonite tradition make necessary changes to the tradition without harming the core values?

One answer: We shouldn't be following Mennonite tradition, but Jesus.

I agree that we need to be a part of Jesus' church, rather than a particular tradition. And the Spirit is essential. However, I think that there is also a place for different traditions. Menno's tradition is not the only viable tradition out there, and for many (including myself) the plain tradition isn't right for our context or the calling God gave us. However, should the plain tradition disappear, the loss to the Christian church at large would be felt. Menno's and the plain traditions are interpretations of what Jesus said-- and without them, the church at large would look so much more like the rest of the world. The Menno tradition is a constant reminder to the church that we aren't supposed to look or act like the rest of the world. That we have to constantly be comparing worldly things and ideas to the light of the gospel to see it for what it really is. And that the church as a whole often accepts without thought that which they should be examining and possibly rejecting.

I have chosen to do this examination on my own instead of buying one particular tradition. Many of us post-boomers are doing that-- not because we just want to do things in a new way, but because we distrust any tradition without solid evidence that we should buy into that tradition.

However, I deeply respect those who hold to a conviction of a tradition because they believe that they are following Jesus in it. Following Jesus is the key, no matter what tradition one is a part of. And following Jesus will look differently to different people. For me, it is giving up all semblance of middle class lifestyle, quitting my job and having my family live among and minister to the homeless and mentally ill. That's our calling and that's the way we need to follow Jesus. Plain folks can't do what I do, and they shouldn't. I can't do what plain folks do and I shouldn't. But we are all necessary to make up the full spectrum of colors in the rainbow of following Jesus, including Charismatics and Catholics and Orthodox and even conservative evangelicals.

A tradition is preserved for as long as God wants it preserved. And a tradition will fade when God wants it to fade. The Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away-- blessed be the name of the Lord.

Various Thoughts About the Law

Originally posted in the thread "Christians and the Law" in MennoDiscuss.

Three questions-- a. Why did Paul make such a fuss about circumcision in Galatians and then turn around and circumcise Timothy in Acts?
b. Did Jesus abolish the Mosaic Law or not? Jesus said he didn't but Paul seems to indicate He did?
c. What does it mean to be Jewish?

a. I believe that Paul circumcised Timothy NOT because Timothy was Jewish, but because he was going to minister to Jews as well as Gentiles, and Paul didn't want to offend the Jewish listeners unnecessarily. Sometimes we have to make sacrifices for ministry that we wouldn't have to otherwise.

b. There are commitments that we are entered into from birth, and we have no choice about. I am an American whether I like it or not, and unless I "convert" and become joined to another nationality, I am limited by American laws no matter where I go around the world.

This is the issue with "law" in the first century. Those who were born Jews were required to fulfill the law throughout their lives. They were born under Moses' law and so needed to fulfill it as best they could, whether they were Christian or not.

Paul's argument in Galatians (as well as the argument in Acts 15)had nothing to do with Jews, but with Gentiles-- with those who were not born Jewish. The question was not "should Jews still act Jewish?" but was "should Gentiles convert to Judaism to be real Christians?" Since Jesus himself was a full Jew, this was a serious question, but the church wisely affirmed God's choice that the Gentiles don't have to live as Jews, but simply follow the law of Jesus-- which Jesus himself said is summarized by loving God and one's neighbor.

c. We need to remember that to be "Jewish" in the first century (pre-Temple destruction) was very different than being "Jewish" today. To be Jewish is to commit oneself to the government and service of Yahweh, which included the Temple cult, the law of Moses, obedience to the priesthood and the Sanhedrien and a pilgrimage to Jerusalem at least once a year. To be a religious Jew today is not to be a Mosaic Jew, because it is impossible to obey the Mosaic law without a temple or a priesthood. They make do with the Rabbinic teachings because the Mosaic law must be re-applied to a post-Temple context.

This is why Judaism and Christianity are actually sister religions-- they are both responses to the question "How do we honor the one true God without a Temple?"

Commands of Jesus we have a hard time obeying

Sell your possessions and give to the poor. (Luke 12:33)

Lend to those in need and expect nothing back. (Luke 6 34-35)

Take care with every word you say. (Matthew 12

Pray persistently for justice. (Luke 18:1-7)

Pray for the Holy Spirit. (Luke 11:9-13)

Don’t worry about your basic needs. (Matthew 6:31)

Don’t worry about tomorrow. (Matthew 6:34)

Don’t serve money. (Matthew 6:24)

Be at peace with your brothers and sisters. (Mark 9:50)

Renounce all of your possessions. (Luke 14:33)

Do not insult another. (Matthew 5:22)

Don’t look at someone to desire them sexually. (Matthew 5:28)

Keep all of your promises. (Matthew 5:37)

Don’t do evil to those who do evil to you, but do good. (Luke 6:27)

Give to those who are in need and ask for help. (Luke 6:30)

Don’t collect earthly treasures. (Matthew 6:19)

Don’t determine the final destination of another. (Matthew 7:1-2)

Repent of your sins before you accuse another of sin. (Matthew 7:5)

Do good to everyone, without exception. (Matthew 7:12)

Be prepared for testing and persecution, especially with prayer. (Luke 14:26-27;
Mark 14:38)

Strive to be the least of all the church. (Luke 9:46-48)

Do good and give to both the righteous and the wicked. (Luke 6:35)

If a brother sins, rebuke him. If he repents, forgive him. (Luke 17:3)

Give in secrecy. (Matthew 6:2-4)

Evangelize with nothing but the clothes on your back. (Matthew 10:9-10)

Celebrate the Sabbath by doing mercy on the Sabbath. (Matthew 12:7, 11-12)

Feed the hungry. (Mark 6:37; 8:2-3)

Be rid of your wealth. (Mark 10:21)

Forgive sins. (John 20:23)

Make disciples of Jesus. Teach them to obey Jesus. (Matthew 28:19-20)

Justice and Prayer

Originally posted on Young Anabaptist Radicals, under "2nd Anniversary Post":

ST got me into your website and I read many articles with great interest. I wish there was this much dialog about “things that matter” in my Asian constituency. Many young people in Asia are busy building their careers, doing well at school, putting up an image and conforming to norms of society—to the point that it prevents them from speaking up and sharing things that really matter. Although, I’m not sure if this issue is specifically Asian …

However, in reading the articles, I don’t see a lot on prayer. Yes, prayer. It’s the one thing that Jesus did every single morning before he did anything else. The one thing that every great person in the Bible did throughout their journeys.

Some of us may think that just praying is not “practical” enough in this world of inequality and injustice.

I have been there, said that.

Or maybe because praying is seen as “too easy an action to do” for us, young people full of energy, willing to sacrifice our lives for a cause that really matters.

Been there, said that too.

But all the problems of the world, the things that bug us in our sleep and stir up our compassion, are too big for us to bear. And God knows this – that’s why God said, “Come to me, ye who are weary …”
In prayer, we surrender the things that we cannot solve into God’s hands, allowing God to work in our midst. On God’s terms and in God’s ways. We surrender the matter into THE hand that is bigger than all our thoughts and efforts combined.

Maybe it’s easier for me to say, being an Asian. I have been attacked by an army of evil spirits sent by people who hated me. I have seen my friend eat a box of intentionally poisoned lunch and not be harmed by it because before every meal he prayed that God would cleanse his food. I have a colleague whose autistic child got healed upon a year of prayer and refusing to take medication. I have seen an evil-possessed young man launched himself like an attacking tiger to a 60-year old lady who prayed for his deliverance, and saw him fell to the ground just a few inches before whacking her head … as if there was an invisible wall created by angels protecting her from harm.

And maybe it is easier for Asians to pray because … many of us simply don’t know what else to do. Many don’t have access to a doctor or even clean water, let alone mental illness experts. Is North American privilege and decadence working to diminish your faith?

And maybe it’s easy for me to say that prayer works, because it has worked throughout my life, without fail. I grew up with God continuously speaking to me in dreams, visions, Bible verses, prophecies and just by making strangers bump into me and say something out of the blue. I asked God for a partner, and God gave me a great husband. I dreamed of living in a community where the people come from all over the world, and I do live in a global melting pot now. My (then) fiancé and I prayed that we would own a home before our wedding day, despite a cash crunch that year, and we now live in the apartment that we dreamed of getting.

So this is just a little poke and encouragement from halfway across the world. Our great God desires for us to speak to Him in prayer so He can show His ways to us. I am not saying just pray and do nothing, but let’s combine the supernatural power of prayer and the natural power of compassion and will.

And you will see your energy not going to waste. And that’s a promise, not from me but from God.


Elina, I think you offer a realistic critique of us Western Christians. I don't think that it is simply Asian youth that only deal with the material world, alas those of us in the West are often superficial and materialistic-- not just striving after "stuff" but also denying the reality of the spirit world in practice.

The writer of Ephesians noted that we, as Christians, do not need to practice warfare on the human realm, because we do so on the spiritual realm. In II Corinthians Paul also said that we do not use worldly weapons, but weapons of the Spirit.

But modern Anabaptists seem to be neglecting both.

I have a Mennonite pastor friend who says that if it were not for God's power and God's kingdom, then the pacifist stance is idiotic. I agree. I think that the world can only be changed by some kind of power, and we are neglecting our duty as people aware of the injustices of this world if we do not pray.

This is why I am so pleased with the Micah Challenge. Their first (but not only) action against worldwide poverty is prayer. They understand that prayer is our first line of attack against injustice.

After being challenged by a businesswoman in Bangladesh, me and my family right now are praying for God's justice and blessing on every Muslim country in the world, one by one. After this, we will be praying for the poorest nations in the world. It is only if we-- and everyone else who knows these issues-- pray that God will take action. And only if God takes action will things change.

Because humanity, on its own, has really screwed things up.

Steve K

Can We Love Too Much?

Originally posted on MennoDiscuss, answering the question, "Is it possible to love someone too much?"

Honestly, we all suffer from loving too little. We are too caught up in our own needs, more often than not (even if that need is a compulsion to help others). The Bible says that if we really love God, then we will love others, and that should never be in conflict. Our usual problem is not loving others too much but loving others in a way that is not love at all.

I know of a woman who loved her adult son so much that whenever he was in need, she would always be there for him. Whenever he needed money, she would provide it. Whenever he needed housing, she would always give it. Whatever he wanted, she was there. And so he became an emotional mess, serverly depressed, never able to provide for himself, a user of drugs and of people because he felt that others were there to help him overcome his suffering. She didn't love her son enough. Not because she didn't care for him, but because all she could see was her role as "mother who provided everything" rather than seriously looking at him to see what he really needed.

True love provides for one's need. But our human needs can be complex.

At times we need to be cared for. At times we need to be left alone to fend for ourselves.
At times we need to listened to. At times we need to listen to God.
At times we need a pat on the back. At times we need to be rebuked.
At times we need free food. At times we need an opportunity to work.
At times we need sex. At times we need abstinence.
At times we need corporate worship. At times we need a silent retreat.

Love is providing for another what they need, when they need it. True love is knowing someone well enough to provide what they really need when they really need it.

Churches Helping the Poor

This was posted in a forum on MennoDiscuss, in a discussion about whether it is enough for a church to help the poor or whether they should give them the gospel as well.

One thing I have noticed in working with the homeless for years in a church context is that "churchies"-- by which I mean middle class Christians-- are willing to give the gospel and they are willing to share resources, but they are often unwilling to do the very thing that would bring people to the Lord-- have a realtionship with the poor.

Both options that have been batted around on this forum-- giving help alone or giving the gospel with it-- are easy to do from a distance. I pass people with signs asking for food or some kind of handout. Usually I have breakfast bars to hand out to people. Sometimes I have a bag which has socks, a bar, some fruit and a tract. But honestly, does any of this really bring anyone to the Lord?

Of course, it is the Spirit that really brings people to the Lord, and we can pray for them. But do we? Do we enact the Spirit by praying for those whom we help?

The best thing we can do to bring people closer to God, to really meet people's needs is to do these things in the context of relationship. I know about 500 homeless people now. I know how they live, what their weaknesses are and their strengths. In the midst of this, I know if I can give them money or not. I know what they really need. I know how to pray for them, and I do. Now, that's easy for me, after all, I'm a pastor to the homeless. It's harder for someone in a middle class context to connect with someone in a lower class.

My recommendation: Rather than setting up a program in which one's church is "serving" the poor with a wall separated between them. Rather than handing out tracts to the poor in hopes that they would come to know Jesus and so become "like us" (which a lot of times means for them not only following Jesus, but also being middle class). Instead, as a family, invite a poor family out to dinner. Don't have them come to your house or go to their house, because they would feel either inadequate or judged. Find a neutral ground that you can just talk and find out more about each other.

Evangelism is so often seen as an instant event. But in reality, it is a long process. And the ones who will win souls aren't those who preach the message often enough, but who get to know people enough that they can really see Christ in them.

Interpreting Revelation

The book of Revelation is just so tricky. Everyone interprets it differently, and though there are schools of thought, I haven't seen any that I'm really enamored of. It seems to me that Revelation pretty much interprets itself.

1. The author says it was written to seven churches in ancient Turkey, most of which do not exist today. Thus, it means that the book was supposed to be understood by them. This doesn't mean that they would have seen all the events it expounds, but they would have read the book and said, "I know what that means"

2. The book has over 2000 OT references. So if we understand the OT well and looked at all the references, we might have a pretty good idea of what it meant.

3. The book clearly talks about future events. We just know these events were after the writing, but not when, specifically.

4. The book is a good portion allegorical. Since John often tells us "this symbol has this meaning" like at the end of chapter 1, then we know that a lot of the stranger symbols have specific meanings, which are often explained in either the OT, Jesus or other apocalyptic literature of the time.

5. The ones who are blessed are not just those who read the book and understand it, but who "do" it (1:3). Thus, the book isn't just about prophecies, but about actions that need to be listened to and obeyed. The majority of these commands are in chapters 2 and 3, but not exclusively.

These princples don't explain everything about the book, but I think it explains some. And I think that we can rule out most of the interprtive schools of the book from them:

Preterist: The whole book couldn't have taken place in the first century. Jesus didn't come back. Thus, at least part of the book hasn't been fulfilled yet.

Futurist and Historist: We can't read the book with newspapers (or History books) in our other hand. The seven churches didn't have the benefit of our contemporary literature, thus the contemporary literature must not be necessary for interpreting it.

Thus, I think that the book is full of symbols that could be interpreted in the ancient world about event that might not have occured yet. And one of the main focuses of the book is the life we are to live before God. So even if we get an event wrong, if we get the princples right and live them out, then we are okay.

Causality and Randomness

Posted in MySpace Philosophy group under the topic "Chaos and Randomness":

Whether any action that happens today is uncaused is a matter for debate.

But unless we hold that time is cyclical, was there not ONE action that was uncaused? That which initiated all things to exist?

The Big Bang was not uncaused. So there had to be some event before that. But the initial event of existance was uncaused.

We depend on causal thinking-- what was called "lazy reasoning"-- because it works, for the most part. Sometimes causal thinking doesn’t work because we have determined the wrong cause. Perhaps it is because some action has too many causes to consider. And perhaps it is because it has no cause.

But considering how many actions occur in a given day, how many forces, both sentient and non- are at work, then we can say that most actions have a cause, no matter how complex it may be. Whether we know or can understand the cause or not.

The Symbol of Light

Light, except is physics, is a symbol.

The question is, what does the symbol mean? Most of the time, light is equated with "truth", which definition deserves it’s own discussion.

But its use goes back to the ancient world, long even before the Gnostics, the New Testament or Plato.

The ancient concept of it goes like this:
In darkness, one cannot see well. In light, everything is exposed. In darkness everything is hidden. In light, everything is open. Thus, light becomes a symbol for knowledge, for truth that was otherwise unknown and for personal openness.

Justice and Traffic

In my opinion, justice is the societal responsibility to make sure everyone has the opportunity to meet their needs. This does not mean that society has to meet everyone's needs, but they need to give them the opportunity to do it for themselves. If they are unable to meet basic needs on their own then society, out of mercy, might help them, but justice is giving everyone opportunity.

People's needs vary greatly, but the basic category of needs are the same for everyone: everyone needs food, shelter, warmth, a place to go to the bathroom, connection with others, basic health, a certain amount of pleasure, security, inner peace, and some respect. No one can be promised any of these things, but they can be assured that nothing would block them from receiving any of them.

Where I think our society has gone wrong is the decision to micro-manage rather than make the big decisions that would be good for everyone. A controversial example is traffic laws. We have a whole system of traffic, a combination of motorized vehicles, bikes and pedestrians, and everyone has to know the complex system or else people could be injured or die. If this system is to be safe at all, then it must be micromanaged carefully and with precision.

However, I wonder if a more rational and just decision would be to just make motorized vehicles over a certain weight illegal, except on personal property. We weren't meant to have two ton appendages to our body-- we just aren't careful enough. And the system as a whole is a failure. Simply because we allow large motorized vehicles, 43,000 people a year die in the U.S. And two and a half million people are injured per year. That's almost one percent of our population.

Micromanaging doesn't seem to work. We just spend more money and aggrivation trying to force people to follow a complex system that changes all the time. I don't think humanity is smart enough for all that.

Pornography

Somasoul posted some excellent thoughts on pornography here:
http://young.anabaptistradicals.org/2008/07/05/owning-women-youve-never-met/#comments

My thoughts in response are as follows:

Somasoul, I think you’re dead wrong.

In your “topic” list, you put “dumb stuff” as well as other topics– and porn isn’t dumb at all.

It is deadly.

I was exposed to it at 12 and it changed my sexuality for the worse for the rest of my life. The man who showed me this shit was thinking he was doing me a favor. But instead he hurt my future sexuality, by establishing sexual patterns and expectations that would be destructive for my future spouse and I and took years to overcome. In some ways, I am still overcoming it.

Not only that, as Prism Magazine recently pointed out, in the modern day, porn is intimately linked to sex slaves and prostitutes. No matter what they claim in porn sites, pornogrphy is simply glorified prostitution, and often glorified sex slavery, with the ones paying for the act to be performed are thousands of miles away from the acts they pay for.

Next time anyone pays for porn, he needs to remember that he is paying for a prostitute and possibly perpetuating slavery.

One last comment on the sexual revolution: We need to remember that the revolution wasn’t only for women. Yes, there was a lot of freedom for women to do as they please, sexually and certainly there is much more opportunity for a woman to express her sexual needs that there never was before.

But for many men, the sexual revolution was just a new lever to get more sex and to be able to openly speak about their “needs”. For women, the sexual revolution was freedom. For many men, it was slavery to their own desires and addictions.

Steve K

Structural Outreach Support

Hi Steve,
Is being "missional" primarily a PNMC thing or a congregational thing? I've always thought the rise
of the term "missional" corresponded with a movement away from agency and
denomination-level mission activity and towards congregational activity. In
other words, "being missional" is something we all need to take responsibility
for at the local level, not expecting higher-level organizations to do all the
mission work on our behalf.
Shalom,
Dave


Dave, you bring up an excellent point, and I think it gets to the heart of our disagreement about the ODC and other missional issues. I'm not talking about my one word I wish to add to the Bylaws. I want to see what others have to say before I support that. I would like to continue the ideological conversation you began:

You see the issue of being "missional" as being centered in congregations. And I am firmly of the opinion that this is not enough. And I will now spend a lot of words telling you why.

Of course, congregations must be missional to survive. They must draw new folks in, because "bedroom evangelism" (as Nelson so politely put it) can only go so far, especially when we find that our children leave our congregation or our church, for one reason or another. So congregations must learn how to be missional and to be structured that way.

But this is what I've seen:

Human beings get culturally and idealistaclly "stuck" in certain patterns. There is just something that we see as "right" and there is just no other way to do it. Studies have been done (who pays for these things, I don't know) that indicate that, with few exceptions, by the time we are 30 we know what kind of music we like and that opinion won't change. And what we like and are used to, in the human psyche, becomes "the good" in our mind and anything else is "less than good."

How does this work in a congregation? Well, a congregation is made up of, usually, like minded folks who are in agreement as to what is "the good" and are very conservative (read: stubborn) about changing that which they consider "the good". So when others come to the church and indicate that something else might be "the good", then there is a disagreement, often sharp. Sometimes the congregation shifts, like Zion has so many times. Sometimes, if there is a church split-- again, we can look at Zion and her various offshoots. And sometimes, the congregation sticks to their guns, so to speak, and thus just pushes those with new ideas out. That third kind of congregation ends up dying with the members that have been strong against change from what they say is "the good."

I am not saying that any of these options are bad. But what I am saying is that if we are to keep the good traditions we have-- which we should-- and are to develp new traditions-- which we should-- then it is highly unlikey to happen WITHIN a congregation. It usually happens in a new congregation, such as Anawim or Old Growth, Rusty and Mary Lou Bonham's new, possibly Mennonite, congregation. Anawim at first tried to be a part of an existing congregation, but because our new idea was not part of "the good" in the established congregation, we were pushed out and forced to be a separate congregation. All this is good. And all this is necessary.

Thus, being missional cannot be seen as happening within congregations.

Within the PNMC, I have been trying to promote a model of congregational mission in which the new "good" might be able to exist parallel, but not joined to, existing congregations. This would mean that a congregation might sponsor a new and different congregation, perhaps under their roof. But in promoting this and seeing it happen at times, I find that usually the established congregation ends up pushing the new congregation out because the new congregation is seen to threaten the existing one, even if only ideologically.

Existing congregations tend to be conservative. And so it is my opinion that, most of the time, the conference must support new congregations. This does not mean financial support, except perhaps for some small "seed" money just to help a new congregation through a difficult period. However, the conference must be there to support new congregations, to welcome them, to honor them, to treat them as equals, to pray for them, to give them significance, to give them community. Otherwise there will be very little mission, because most established congregations are ill equipped-- nay, even resistant-- to be missional.

The church/conference should be the place where congregations of different cultural, ethnic, and theological traditions should meet and support each other, recongnizing Christ in each other's tradition. The conference should also put limits on this, determing what is and is not part of the church (this is a big disagreement, I understand, but we aren't ready to accept Buddhist monestaries as a Mennonite congregation, I believe). AND if the conference is to be a place of diversity, then they must support new congregations, because established congregations have a hard time with this.

The conference does this because we want to support brothers and sisters in Christ. The conference does this because we know that to survive as a conference, we must welcome new members. The conference does this because Christ is not limited to our old traditions.

We must allow congregations to stick to their old traditions, if that is what helps them be a community. But we also need to recognize that congregations that stick to ONLY the old traditions will, eventually, die out. Congregations, as organizations, only have a limited life. But if we as a whole entity are missional, we can extend that life to the next generation.

So, I hope you see, Dave, that my persistence in trying to keep the PNMC as an entity, missional, is, in my mind, for the survival of the PNMC itself.

I hope we'll be able to continue this conversation.

Steve K

Critical Thinking and Faith

Is critical thinking in opposition to Christian faith and practice? -Wayne M

Critical thinking is a life skill, not a school one. We could learn it anywhere. I began my process of critical thinking in a poetry class and reading Francis Schaeffer as a high schooler. I teach my children critical thinking by questioning advertisements and by presenting them with straw men that I expect them to knock down. I teach critical thinking in my Bible studies by asking people to tell me what the text says, not their theology, no matter how orthodox it is.

If critical thinking is a value-- one that I affirm strongly, and, it seems most of us here do-- we must also remember that it is not a biblical requirment. If someone has a simple faith, we must let them have it.

But I hope for our children, that we expect more of them. In our society of pluralism, we need to look beyond the facade to what is really being said. We've got to be smarter than the people around us if we are going to perpetuate the gospel to the next century, let alone the next millenium.



I do think that God strongly disaproves of faith that isn't thought out.

First of all, He disaproves of faith that is misplaced. Not just misplaced in worshipping other gods, although in ancient society that wouldn't necessarily be a given. The logic would be-- "If we worship two gods we get the benefits of BOTH!" But also we could try to worship an image as an "assist" to worshipping God-- that's a no-no. Or we could make something unholy by our attempt to be respectful (like II Sam. 6). In other words, we can't have faith simply because it SEEMS faithful to do something. We have to do it according to the commands of God. Well, to do the commands of God, we have to examine the Scriptures to find out what they really say, like the noble Bereans (Acts 17:11)

Also, we have to examine the logical consequences of our faith ahead of time. Jesus said that we have to "count the cost" (luke 14) before we follow Him to see if we can truly accept the conequences. And we have to logic our faith out in practice so that our entire lives are consistent with our faith-- our practice may look different than others (Romans 14-15), but it is still important to figure it out.

I think it is a mistake to say that biblical faith is a "leap" like Kierkegaard did. I rather like to think of it as baby steps that God leads us to, not just with our spirit, but with our mind as well. "Leaps of faith" are usually the precoursor to stupid decisions and even oppression that should never have been done in the name of Jesus.

-Posts found in MennoDiscuss under "The Big MennoDiscuss Education Poll"

Are Muslims the Enemy of Christians?

There are a number of points I want to make about the general assumption of Americans and others who see people being oppressed by the Muslims:

1. The Qur'an is usually overinterpreted by both terrorists and opponents to Muslims. If you read it carefully, in chronological order, it is the book of an OT prophet, affirming the oneness of God who was attacked by his enemies and later by those he felt to be his friends. The attacking he promotes is only opposed to polytheists only. The book goes out of its way a number of times speaking of the brotherhood between Muslims and "the people of the book", namely Jews and Christians. Muhummad ended up being rejected by the Jews, but still wanted to give them their spiritual place as brothers to Muslims. Yes, they enslaved whole peoples (which the Bible is strictly opposed to-- see the first couple chapters of Amos), and they destroyed other peoples, but they mostly saw these peoples as polytheists. The Christians in the lands they conquered they did not forcably convert, but allowed to live in their lands, as Christians.

2. The worst sin in the Muslim idea is that of "shirk"-- or giving any place to any created being beside God. This is why they are so opposed to Sonship language for Jesus, although they see him as one of the greatest prophets, the son of virgin Mary and most have a tradition of Jesus returning to rule the earth. They feel that their task as a people is to eradicate any form of polytheism and idolatry. To have a picture of God or of Muhammad, God's "greatest prophet" is a great sin because of the fear to worship the image instead of God alone.

3. There is too much power being given to fringe Muslim groups by their enemies. Bin Laden isn't just a Muslim fundamentalist, he is also a Marxist. Most Muslims are opposed to his ideals, especially that of considering any Muslim who works with the West a promoter of Satanic ideals, as well as his decades-old call to violent revolution. This is not to say that Muslims are peaceful-- they will make war when they need to defend themselves-- but they don't think that killing Muslims or initiating violence is the right way. Unfortunately, in seeing Muslims or the Qur'an as the great enemy of the Christian faith, we alienate those whom we should be giving the gospel to, and give credence to the revolutionary Muslims ideas.

4. Again, Muslims need to know the truth about Jesus. That is most important. What most Muslims and Christians do not know, though, is how much truth about Jesus that is in the Qu'ran itself. Beyond what I said above about Jesus in the Qur'an, the Qur'an also says that Jesus is the Word of God, the Messiah and that he died and rose again (in the original Arabic). This information is being used to evangelize Muslims throughout the world. One of the greatest church plant efforts in the Muslim world has been started on this premise, and thousands of Muslims are coming to Jesus-- not just in a revival meeting, but in connecting with other Muslims who now pray, "Allah is God and Jesus is his Messiah" five times a day. When we focus on the wrong issues-- painting all of Islam like a fringe group, labeling Muhammad or the Qu'ran as "evil", labeling Allah as a "moon god", highlighting the violence of some Muslims rather than the gracious hospitality and brotherhood of most Muslims-- then we lose the opportunity to truly give Muslims the truth of Jesus.

Is America A Christian Nation?

Is America A Christian Nation? -Kevin M.

The U.S. is not nor ever was a Christian nation. To have freedom of religion which the Consitution promises is to be able to worship a different god than the Christian one. It is the possibility of worshipping the god one wants to worship with an image of creation. It is the possibility of taking the Lord's name in vain, to speak falsehood in the name of a god.

This is why I find it amusing that justices and citizens try to promote the ten commandments as the law of the land when they are actually in direct opposition to the constitution.

The country was founded on a rebellion against proper authority, when the way of the cross is to submit and to allow God to undermine oppressive authorities.

This is not to say that the country didn't have Christian elements-- certainly it was influenced by Christianity. But on some very basic principles it stands against a Christian theocracy.

And for that I am profoundly glad. Honestly.

Because of the U.S. capitalistic view of religion, true followers of Jesus can stand in stark contrast to all other religions, including that of false Christianity. There is a greater opportunity to share the true gospel in this country that other "Christian" countries do not have. If everyone is a "christian" in a country, then no one needs to repent or to be saved. In our country, we have the freedom to have different ideas, to "convert" others and to share the true message of Jesus without worrying about whether it agrees with some leader's limited idea of what Jesus was saying.

And with the U.S. not being a Christian nation, it also can understand itself as an imperfect secular state, able to make mistakes and to apologize for them because the state's decisions is not the will of God in Christ.

At least, ideally, that's how it should be.

-Posted in MySpace, Christians for Social Action group

The Church And The World

What is supposed to be the connection between the church and the world?
-Josh

The church is to be a community providing an example of justice and righteousness-- "You are a city on a hill"

The church is to be a prophet, explaining to the world of God’s blessing and punishment and how to obtain God’s blessing through Jesus’ life and teaching-- "I have not come to judge the world, but that the world might be saved"

The church is to be involved in the world, displaying God’s love and forgiveness to the marginalized and hopeless. "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

(Posted on Christians For Social Justice on MySpace)
http://groups.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=groups.groupProfile&groupID=100078449&Mytoken=12373CC7-B1B3-42A2-9BA5940C71BF04B492345519

Unrequested Counsel for a Seminary Student

I wrote this to a seminary student who was offended by a remark I made that it was a heresy for the church to require pastors to attend seminary. Unfortunately, he never left me an email or anything for me to contact him back. So I am going to inflict my letter on you. Hopefully somebody gets something out of it.

Dear Adam:

I am sorry if you were offended at my comments about the requirements for seminary. It is not that I think a seminary is a bad place to be, I just think that there is much in it that shouldn’t be requirements for ministry. Yet most denominations require seminary for their pastors to be ordained. In fact, for some denominations, a seminary education almost guarantees you a place in ministry. This situation causes many of us—whether in or out of pastoral ministry—to think more highly of those who are educated than the Bible says we ought.

It says in Scripture that “knowledge puffs up, but love builds up.” In other words, we often get an education to prove our self worth. This is why we get degrees and want to get good grades, to prove that we have accomplished our tasks of learning and obtaining knowledge. But that is not the basis of ministry. The basis of ministry is self-sacrifice, the giving of who we are into people’s needs, action based on compassion.

This does not mean that an education is wrong. It’s fine. It is especially helpful in our society when people respect those who have knowledge. But we must set aside the unspoken assumptions about this education: that seminary will prepare us to do ministry, which is based on love, not knowledge. An education is an aide for some, but it is not a requirement for a ministry of love. Knowledge is an assistant in preaching and in understanding both doctrine and the history of doctrine. But this is all background, not the real thing.

When I was striving after my degrees in order to be ready for ministry, there are certain things that I wish someone would have told me, to put things in perspective, as I was in my studies. Some of them I learned in school, some of them I learned later. I am going to share them with you now, even though you didn’t ask. Perhaps they will be helpful to you, perhaps not. But since I’ve been a pastor for some ten years, I’ve learned some stuff and yet I still remember what it was to be a student. So, here’s the advice that I would give myself as a divinity student:

a. It’s all about Jesus. The history of doctrine and the various arguments about Bible passages is significant, but if we lose sight of Jesus—His life, His ministry, His death and resurrection, all for us to imitate—then we have lost what is most important. In the midst of our discussions about the rapture or the nature of the soul, we must not get distracted from the One whom we are to serve and the One whom we are to be. Ministry isn’t about knowing about Jesus, but living Him out.

b. My knowledge is as apt to be a distraction as a boon. Just as the man with a hammer sees every problem as a nail, so the man with book knowledge assumes every problem can be fixed with facts. This is rarely true. If we were engineers or mechanics, then the facts are all important. But when working with people, it is most important that we communicate the truth, not have it. And to communicate we need to listen more than talk. We need to know the one to whom we are communicating, and only then will we succeed in communicating successfully. Thus, we must know people more than we know facts. Facts are easy, people are hard.

c. The end of our schooling is the beginning of our education. Part of a seminary education is to help us understand the gospel in a deep way. However, the best that seminary does is give us the tools to learn. It is the Spirit that leads us, after the schooling, to use our skills learned to understand the Truths that will be significant for us. Graduation is our entrance into the School of the Spirit.

d. Ministry is not based on what we know, how much money we have or the position we hold. Ministry is sourced by the Spirit of Jesus. Note that when Jesus was preparing for ministry, he didn’t go to school, but to the wilderness. The only knowledge he obtained is how to trust the Lord. To heal others, he did not need theology, but dependence. This does not mean that He did not have knowledge, as He did. But the key to his ministry was power and knowledge from the Father, not the power or knowledge from humanity.

e. The goal of education is not good grades or even graduation. It is to learn what Jesus wants us to learn. This may mean that Jesus will want us to not spend so much time on grades as people. Or He may want us to share the time of learning with those in need we could assist. The time of learning is in God’s hands, not the educators.

f. Seminaries are based on the Platonic model of universities. The assumption in that model is that if one has knowledge, then one will act on that knowledge. However, we know that the Pharisees had knowledge, but the didn’t act rightly on that knowledge. Jesus’ method of education is based on some teaching and some modeling. Most seminaries give an opportunity for practicum, but it may be difficult to find a model. Look for someone to model yourself after, who is already doing the ministry you think you might do—and so this would likely not be a professor. Ask if you could spend time with them, just observing. This may seem weird, but it is how we learn, by imitation, not conceptually.

g. Remember this: our time in seminary does not make us ministers. And a true minister is not a professional. There are people who have never had a college class who will be better ministers in some ways than we will ever be. We must remain humble, not seeking the better salary, not seeking recognition, not seeking the larger church, but instead only seeking the will of God. We need to remember that Jesus will laud the ministers without titles, without a salary, without glory, without any recognition whatsoever, but have been faithful, than the ministers who have all of that. So let us seek the praise of Jesus, not the things of the world.

h. A minister is not just a servant, but a slave. The term Jesus uses for his most honored leaders is slave, the least, the insignificant. So Jesus’ plan for us, if we are truly to obtain His greatness in ministry, is to do the dirtiest tasks, hang with the nastiest people, live in the worst parts of town in order to accomplish the greatest work. We may never get anything for it—in fact, our only reward may be rejection by all whom we hold important in our lives—but it is what Jesus seeks for us that is most important. Perhaps we will also get a good salary, perhaps we will also get a large church. SOMEBODY’S got to do those ministries. But even if we do, we must remain real—still hang with the lowly, still do the nasty tasks. Still be the slave.

In order to make our time in seminary preparation for our life in Jesus, we must keep our mind on the goal—being like Jesus at all times, even while we are learning. Pray that we will be Jesus, not just learn about Him.

If you’re still reading, Adam, thanks for listening. Hope I didn’t offend you more, but I hope that you can get something from what I have learned.

May the Lord grant you to obtain and make peace,

Steve Kimes

Real Education

I believe some conservative Christians oppose high education for the exact same reason they oppose public schooling: FEAR
College campuses do challenge traditional values and tend to lean heavily left-ward. All you need to do is sit through an orientation session at a college (even in a fairly conservative area) and you soon will discover that you aren't in Kansas anymore. You learn about tolerance for "alternative" lifestyles, how not to get date raped and where to get free condoms. I wish I still had a copy of the "stop the hate" week events.
There are pressures present on a college campus that you might not find anywhere else. I do not believe that a Christian is not called to cower in fear, but is to confront the culture. It does seem that a whole lot of children raised in a church setting abandon their religion in the four years they were on a college campus.
Before anyone becomes confused about where I stand, I believe that going to college is an excellent opportunity to learn about other people. I take the same stance on college as I do with public schooling: I think it is a good option that will help build a person's perspective. College doesn't create the weak faith, but it does expose weak faith.
Stoltz13


To a certain degree I agree that we should never avoid education because of fear. We are not supposed to separate from the world, or be naive of the world. Yes, we are to be innocent as doves, but also as shrewd as serpants. We cannot truly minister to the world unless we know the world.

But we need to know the world from God's perspective. This is why I do not send my children to public school during grade school. I don't believe that they are established well enough in the worldview of Jesus to be handed over to the world for their education. When it is time, when they understand what we believe and why we live how we do, and also are able to make choices on their own based on what is real and not just because of social pressure, then I send them to school.

As far as college goes, it isn't necessary, but I would encourage my children to go if they wanted or needed to in order to do what God wants them to do.
-Steve K



However, I do wonder if all this sheltering and protecting children is effective for preserving faith... what kind of faith can't stand up to any testing? Is it real faith or just an illusion of faith? Can faith really be preserved?

I for one am not convinced that indoctrinating our children and keeping them isolated from the world will produce any signficant difference in results. True, by keeping them close to home with good social pressure we might be able to get them to appear right on the outside... but is that our goal?

Kinda like the Prodical son vs. the son who stayed home... did the son at home develop as a person by being isolated from harmful influences? Who's faith became greater as that story progressed?
Stoltz

I agree that there is no cause for sheltering our children. However, we also shouldn't thrust our children out into a world of hostility without training or an example.

I homeschool my children in the context of a household and a church where there are drug addicts, mental illness, people threatening my life, deaths, AIDS, conflict-- as well as laughter, hope, prayer and recovery from addiction. So they see my wife and I deal with all of these issues. This is their true schooling, more than Bible studies and math problems.

So I agree. If homeschooling is "sheltering" children from the world, then it is not a full education. But if homeschooling is integrated with exposure to the real world and a Christian response to it, then it is far better than sending a six-year-old to public school and saying, "Okay, now go and deal with it" How can they know unless they are taught?
Steve K

Fear and Racism

It is a basic principle for all creatures to fear that which is the same size or bigger than them, but different.

I have some pretty large rats in my backyard, and a cat. If the cat sees a rat, he will just let it pass by without even flinching, because they are about the same size. While the cat is made to attack creatures, they are only those that are smaller than them.

But then my cat saw an advantage. The rat was focused on something else for a while, ignoring the cat. So the cat saw that he had the upper hand and attacked the rat, wounding it, playing with it and then killing it.

Thus:
Difference and equal power equates fear.
Fear leads to anxiety
Anxiety seeks advantage over fear.
Anxiety attacts the object of fear.

Those of other race not only look different, but more importantly, they hold to different mores and cultural presuppositions than one. Because those of other race have a population that could potentially harm one’s own race, and it is different, the other race is an object of fear. "They might insist that we follow their ways."-- this translates into core racist language "They have taken over our cities"; "They have conspired to control us economically."; "They will blemish our civilization." These are all statements of anxiety.

Those in fear/anxiety will then seek an advantage-- economically, militarily, politically, etc-- to make themselves "bigger". Once they feel safe, they will attack that which caused them fear. This is primarily to give them and their society freedom from the anxiety they have been feeling. Once the object of anxiety is completely subdued or destroyed, then the original society can feel safe.

This is the pattern you can find in Nazi Germany, in Israel/Palestine and in Rwanda.

If we want to be rid of racial/cultural/social prejudice, we need to create opportunities for open relationship between the opposing groups. In familiarity and relationship, fear disappears. Once both sides recognize the other as humans with needs and desires like them, there is the possibility to compromise for the sake of peace for both sides.

Are we forced to sin?

"Doubter" posts: "If we are all sinners because of Adam's choice, then are we forced to sin? Do we have no choice BUT to sin? Is this what God arranged from before the world began? And doesn't this make God a manipulator-- He forces us to sin so we have to turn to Him?"

I think current neuroscience illustrates our choice pretty well. It has been proven that most people who are addicts have a genetic "switch" in their brains that makes them an addict. Should a certain enviornmental condition exist, that "switch" is triggered and the person becomes an addict. From that point it is difficult, almost impossible on their own, to stop being an addict. It is something they deal with the rest of their lives.

Even so, this is how our "choice" is of sinning. Adam and Eve were created with a "full" choice, but this does not mean that we do not have choices. We and our parents have the choice to determine what our enviornment is. We may not be able to determine our reaction once we enter that enviornment, but we can make the choice as to whether we go there and connect with those people. Of course, that choice is also limited-- sometimes we are forced by other circumstances to be in circumstances we never would have chosen. Nevertheless, although we are "weak" we still have a choice.

This fits with Scripture. Humanity (read, "adam" in Hebrew) has been given rule over the earth. Every person is given kingship over certain areas. But humanity is no longer one or two people-- it is a complex of control issues. We have multiple rulers over each person-- parents, governors, creditors, police, etc-- and we have a complex system within ourselves which is partly moral and partly a mess of a bunch of desires, some positive, some not so. It seems to me that we have, then, two problems-- we don't know ourselves very well and we don't have control over our situation. This combination causes us to sin.

Is this God's fault? Did God set this up? I think that this is one of the possibilities that God established, but it wasn't necessarily His only plan. It is NEVER God's will or plan for people to sin. He doesn't want his children to rebel against him. But if they do sin, then He has a backup plan.

Are we forced to sin now? I guess the circumstances of our ancestors pretty much made it impossible for anyone's "switch" not to be triggered. We will end up in an enviornment in which we will feel that sin is our best-- and only-- response. Adam is the only one who ever had a full choice without being coerced.

Does this make God a manipulator? Well, yes and no. Adam could have a full choice because he was already in relationship with God. God created Adam to be under His authority. Adam could only be a just ruler if he listened to God and paid attention to God's recommendations. We however, from the time we are born, are under the authority of others who, like Adam, have chosen to make their own moral decisions apart from God's will. And we don't know how messed up this is until our whole lives are shattered because of our sin-- until our desires hit a road block and we realize that we aren't doing what we were made to do.

So what is our best and only choice then? To turn to God-- as we were created to do-- and to repent and to allow God to give us a new start. This happens through Jesus. And when we turn to Jesus we receive the Holy Spirit and become a NEW CREATION. This means that we become like Adam. We then have full, free choices to live in God's will.

So, perhaps, we only have a full, real choice in Jesus. But that is because Jesus is recreating us to BE new Adams. That is where real freedom begins.

-Posted on MennoDiscuss

The Historical Reliability of the Resurrection

"That is why I would assert that the resurrection must be the “starting point” for the rational seeker and for our apologetic, as it is a fully defensible historic event."
-Wayne

"While I agree in substance with what you have said, I would disagree in detail. The fact is, that the resurrection is only defensible from a biblical perspective, as it is not historically recorded outside of the Bible, with the exception of a highly disputed passage from Josephus, unless you have a source that I am unaware of. Care to expound?"
-GC



GC, I have an issue with you separating a "biblical" perspective from a "historical" one. You are speaking as if the NT aren't ancient documents, historical in their own right. Do they express a theological bias? Sure! But if we are going to deny Jesus' resurrection from the basis of bias, then we can question any historical event on the basis of the bias of their authors. One example I think of is the existence and death of Socrates. Plato and Xenophon are the only documents we have of that death, and they are both clearly biased. So should we deny the event? No, because their biases were different, yet they both agreed upon the same event.

Or what about Julius Caesar's conquering of Gaul? All the first hand witnesses were biased in their writings, but we do not deny the event. Why? Because it offers the best explanation of later events, such as the mixing of Gaulish with Latin to create French, etc.

We have a similar case with the resurrection.

Here are some historical reasons for the resurrection:
1. We have writings of people who claimed to have seen Jesus, resurrected, after he died. One of which is Paul, who also referred to many others who claimed to see Jesus (I Corinthians 15) another is the writer of 1 John.

2. We have many documents that say that there are people who have claimed to see Jesus resurrected, and not just in the NT. Thus it is well known that there were witnesses to Jesus' resurrection, whether those witnesses are declared credible or not. It is on these testimonies that Christianity, a great force in the history of the world, was built. Without these testimonies there is no real cause for Christianity.

3. Many of these witnesses died for their claim, including Paul, Peter, Stephan and many others. If they would have claimed that their testimony was not true, they would have lived. But they held to the fact of Jesus' resurrection through torture and death penalty trials. If a person dies for a cause, it at least means that THEY believed it, whether it is true or not. But in this case, either they experienced the resurrected Jesus or they did not. If they did not experience it, then they could have denied it and so lived. But affirming this experience was worth their lives. Thus their credibility raises. Either they were misled, insane or they truly saw what they said they saw.

4. Were they misled? Did someone tell them a false story? Well, like Paul, they claimed to have seen Jesus in real-life time, not in a vision or dream. This means that they claimed they had a personal experience, not a story told to them. Later witnesses, of course, had to believe the previous witnesses, so they could have been misled, but not the original witnesses.

5. Were they insane? It is possible to have a group hallucination, although very rare. This might be credible if they saw what they expected. But the earliest documents we have all agree that all original witnesses originally denied the belief of Jesus' resurrection, and it was only proved to them by seeing it first hand. For Paul this was a complete turn-around in his life. It does not seem likely that they had a hallucination.

6. Since that time, hundreds of thousands have experienced miracles based on the word of the person who it is claimed to be resurrected. This is not a direct claim of resurrection, but it is a strong affirmation of some kind of unknown power that rests in the person of Jesus, that indicates that there is something more than just a religious story going on here.

7. Given that there is sufficient ancient evidence for an ancient event, the strongest argument against the resurrection is this: "Resurrections simply don't happen. We have never seen a resurrection, therefore resurrections could never have happened." But this argument is an argument against someone else's personal experience based on the lack of personal experience. Just because we have not personally seen the surface of Pluto does not mean that such a surface does not exist. It is easy to deny that which we have not seen, and say that the evidence for it is shaky. But logically it doesn't hold water. We cannot deny what another person saw by saying that we have not seen it. We cannot deny that someone has not felt something because no one we know has ever felt it.

Thus, the fact is, there IS historical basis for the resurrection-- as historically reliable as many other events we have in history that we strongly affirm. And there is realistically only a philosophical presupposition against it.

-A Discussion from MennoDiscuss

Discussion on Theology

A discussion held at the site Christarchy! under the topic "RANT!"
http://www.christarchy.com/

Too much time is spent on theological sidelines, such as a debate on Cavinism. It's entertaining, but does it really get to the heart of the gospel?

So often we ask "what is true?" when we should really be asking, "what is significant?" It is so easy for us to get caught up in Bible trivia, or theological interpretaitons. We really don't have time for that. There are people dying out there without the gospel, so we need to focus in on significant truths.

What are these significant truths? What needs to be done is rather than have "Bible studies" in general, we should focus on what is important to Jesus. After all, it is Jesus who is our Lord, not Calvin, not Augustine, not even Paul. And what is important to Jesus is that which He spoke about.

Jesus said that we should call no one "teacher" for we all have one teacher and that is the Christ (Matt 23). So a Christian Bible Study should be led by Jesus. And those who are the moderators should be those who are well versed in the teaching of Jesus, not the Law, not theology, not politics, not social reform. Let's let Jesus himself teach us about the True Law, the True Theology, True Politics and True Social Reform. We need to stop beginning with the world's ideas and just stick with Jesus.

Steve K


theology doesn't really cook my grits if i can be honest here. if someone want sto zing me with their reaons why i'm wrong i'll greatfully read it, but i don't get any satisfaction from studying who someone else thinks God is through over analyzing a re-defined rather than re-contextualized obscure passage. i only have a problem with theology when people start to worship their idea of who God is rather than God, the unknowable.

i am working very hard to make the best of this time when i don't have a full time job and i can walk carefully in the dust of my rabbi.

-Nathan


In Theology it isn't what you know, it's Who you know!

That Who is a source of ideas & wisdom for knowing Him better! As it says in James' letter, it helps to pray for more wisdom & understanding. We don't necessarily have enough otherwise!

I find a lot of people in the Quaker thing lately who don't think they should be praying for anything, but should be rather leaving it all up to God. But I don't think we're supposed to see God's will as altogether independent of ours. We need to ask so we can think about what's worth asking for. We need to ask so we can take our part in the process, practice our dependence on God and at the same time practice taking part in what God does with us. (God can give a person muscles, but there are reasons He normally makes doing something with them a requirement for that.)

A good theology is a kind of a poem, not a sort of tech manual! If you read it in that spirit, you can understand it better and have less risk of putting it to bad use.

The basic Quaker thing (& a basic Sufi thing, for that matter) is to recognize God as our teacher. God can teach us through the Bible, but also through anything else in our life. If you look for His classroom hints, they're there!

"You need to keep paying attention. If you aren't paying attention, you miss all the jokes!"
-Forrest Curo




You hit it exactly right Forrest. This is why my next sermon series is about knowing God, but I'm going to talk about our relationship to God, how He communicates to us and we communicate to Him. The term "love" in Scripture that we are to have for God is the same word love as between spouses. Thus, there is an intimacy, a communication that is just missing in theology.

Theology has it's place, when done correctly, in giving us a short-cut to some basic principles of the Bible. But when theology takes the place of the relationship we should have with God it becomes a heresy, an abomination. God doesn't want to drop us tracts, He wants to dwell with us.

Steve K

Respect, Trust, Love

Does the requirement to love also require us to respect others? What about to trust them?

Respect
Of course we are all called to love. And love is connected to respect.

In the ancient world, “honor” was a very important concept, even as it is to those who we see as being “macho” today. Many people—men, especially—are sensitive about their dignity, that they be treated with the proper amount of respect. In the ancient world, all men were concerned about that. Being treated with dignity was a basic human requirement, unless you were a slave or a woman.

In the church, slaves and women began to be treated with dignity as well. Poor people, who were treated at times as little better than slaves, were to be treated with dignity as well. James makes the connection between love and respect very clear in his second chapter. Poor people were being ignore by the church, who focused all their lavish attention on the wealthy. James says that the church was disrespecting the poor man, whom God blesses because of their faith. Then he gives his Scriptural proof—“Love your neighbor as yourself.” Even as we do not wish to be disrespected, to be treated without dignity, even so we should treat others with dignity, with basic respect.

What does this respect mean? Does it mean to praise everyone? Does it mean that we have to say nice things about all people no matter what they do? Does it mean that we need to give everyone the “red carpet treatment”? No. We do not have to treat everyone like a Nobel Lauriat.

Respect means the following things:
a. We speak politely to everyone
b. We don’t look down on anyone, no matter who they are or what they’ve done
c. We listen to what people are saying
d. We do not treat another person as a bad person unless we have proof that they are, and even then, we let people know that any cautions we take are not personal.
e. We apologize for any slight we might have given to others, whether intentional or unintentional
f. We should thank and praise people for the work they have done for us or for the Lord

We can give some people more respect than others, but this should be for how they have lived before the Lord, not because of worldly standards. We shouldn’t respect one person above another because they have more money, more fame, more status than others. If a person is an authority, such as a police officer or a governor, then we should give the respect that is due to the office—but that is more of a formal politeness (Paul said to “give respect to whom respect is due” in speaking of government officials).

But if someone like Jean Vanier comes by, then we should give him more respect than others. Not because of his fame, but because of his faithfulness to the Lord. Because he started a great work and has built up God’s kingdom. We should see the Mother Theresas of the world, and give them great respect. Not because others are giving them respect. But because God has respect for them. And we should open our eyes to those whom God respects that the world does not, such as Byron, and give them the respect that the world does not give. We should go out of our way to thank them for their life of faithfulness.

Trust
The saying goes, “Trust isn’t given, it is earned.” I would say that a certain amount of trust IS given. If someone walks in our house, we don’t assume that they will steal anything. We will not leave someone with our guest to make sure that they don’t make off with the silver. If we did, we would be treating them as a thief and that would be a sign of disrespect.

But when trust is broken, that is when it must be earned back. And it usually must be earned twice as much to establish the trust that is given freely to anyone.
But I think you were asking about the trust we should give.

First of all, do not give or withhold basic trust based on appearances or life circumstance. Just because someone is impoverished doesn’t mean that they are less trustworthy in money matters. Just because someone is mentally ill doesn’t mean they are dangerous (less so, statistically). We need to give everyone the same amount of trust or lack of trust unless we see that their actions don’t support that trust.

If someone breaks our trust, we should not use that as an excuse to break our relationship with them. We must give them an opportunity to repent.

If the person does repent, we must forgive them and accept them back into our good graces. But does this mean we trust them? Well, yes, but with reservations. Gordon, I trust you completely, but I don’t trust you enough to bring you into a bar and to put a drink in front of you. That’s because I know your weaknesses and I don’t want to trip you up. Even so, when someone breaks our trust and they repent, then we know their weaknesses better. And we are able to take better care for them, by helping them avoid situations in which their weaknesses will be vulnerable.

That’s Romans 14. We don’t judge people because they hold different standards than us, but we don’t make them vulnerable to their weaknesses, either.

So trust unless you have reason not to.
Forgive and then take responsibility to help the trust breaker not to break trust again.

Red Letter Christians

A Discussion on MennoDiscuss:

Do the forgoing comments require that the red letters be more important than the black ones? If they are all inspired, they should all coincide. Most of what Christ taught as is recorded for us, was before the sacrifice that He made, the rest comes afterward, in definition of His work of redemption.

While Paul is certainly more "theological" in his presentation, is he less inspired? Perhaps he was only 80% inspired, while Christ was 100% inspired? This seems to be the outworking of the lines of reasoning that you all are suggesting, a carving up of the NT with a pen knife.

As I recall, the early Anabaptists used all of the NT to define their faith. The concept of body dynamics is found in Paul, more completely defined than in the gospels (ie, community of goods, etc). Can we have one without the other? How would you know how the early church practiced except for the book of Acts? Can you separate Acts from Luke?

I don't find a principle in the NT writers that elevates the gospels above the rest, it seems to be an invention, though perhaps well intended, but an invention of humans, non the less. Remember, the gospels themselves are the observations of humans, and not the writings of Jesus, just like the rest of the NT. IF one part is inspired by the Holy Spirit, then all of it is, and bears the same stamp of authority and approval of YHWH.

The fact is that most of what Christ taught is eschatalogical, and how many of us ignore the real implications of that, and either ignore it, or try to explain it away as being irrelevant or unfulfilled? Why indeed should it be so hard to understand why so much more of His teachings are handled in similar fashion? We hold to the traditions of man contrary to the teachings of Jesus, but will major on some favorite passages. Let's put them together, and allow all of them to speak to us cohesively.
-G Donner

The principle of being "red letter focused" is not, as far as I follow it, a question of having one part of Scripture being "more inspired" than others, but recognizing that Scripture as a whole is not consistent, nor can we take all of it's commands and princples to be of equal weight. As Jesus pointed out, sometimes keeping the Sabbath holy isn't consistant with having mercy on the needy and we have to make choices. And we have to make decisions about the law of having a rail on our roof. And we have to make a determination as to whether we will listen to James' or Paul's understanding of how faith and works connect.

The "red letter" approach is to say that we begin our interpretation of the whole inspired Scripture with Jesus to help us understand what God really wants from us. Jesus not only is our Saviour and God, but He is also our Teacher, and the Scripture can only be truly understood through Him. He teaches us not only the fulfillment of the Law, and the meaning of the Prophets, but He also teaches us how to understand Paul and the significace of Hebrews. In my understanding, the OT is the text that Jesus uses to expound His principles, but they have no coherance apart from His teaching. The NT is the act of Jesus followers attempting to apply Jesus to their lives. But Jesus' teaching and life is the center of our existance. If we have nothing other than Jesus' words, then we have enough. Because we have more than just Jesus words, but also the books on which he expounded and the commentaries on his teaching, then we are richly blessed with great knowledge.

However, if we put our limited interpretation of Paul above Jesus (as some do when they say that Paul's teaching allows us to ignore the principles of the Sermon on the Mount), then we are putting Paul, not Jesus as our Teacher (even though they rightly never disagree with each other). If we place Moses or David above Jesus (as some do when they hold the principles of the warrior to be above Jesus' teachng on loving one's enemies) then we have Moses or David as our Teacher, not Jesus.

Jesus said that we are not to call each other Teacher, for only ONE would be our teacher, the Messiah (Matthew 23). So if Jesus is our Messiah, then He alone is our teacher, and Paul and James and John and Moses and David and Solomon and Isaiah etc, are only helpful as teachers if they point us to the teaching of Jesus. Sure, they can give us some good help that Jesus didn't actually say, but it is Jesus who is our doctrine.

What Is Truth?

When, Pilate, asked the question, 'what is truth?', what did he really mean? What is truth for everybody? What is truth in general?

Since Pilate turned away, I don’t think he expected an answer. His was a rhetorical question, assuming the answer was relative. In the book of John, the meaning is deeper. Jesus had just told his disciples that He was the truth and that the Spirit would lead them into all truth. So truth for Jesus is what God gives us that leads us to Himself.

So, what IS truth? Well, truth is what is real. It is affirming that what is in a person’s head is just in their head and reality is reality. Truth is what really happens, what really happened and what will really happen. Truth is not only an accurate present, but also an accurate history and an accurate prediction of what will occur. Truth is also affirming proper cause and effect. This kind of truth is objective, but it can be difficult to discover and it is small compared to the overall reality in which we live.

Truth does get muddled a bit because it is so hard to discover. What is “true” for one person is their ideology, that which they act on. And these ideological truths—these worldviews on which we base our lives and hopes and relationships—are as subjective as they are based on reality. They are the interpretation we use to see al things, without which we would never act, but with them we cause all disagreements and conflicts. Ideological truths are what are being talked about when some say that “all truth is relative” because there seem to be as many truths in this way as there are people. Even if people agree on ideology, they disagree on the details.

There is another kind of truth which is significant truth. Reality is so vast, the past so detailed, the future so obscure, ideologies so varied, that it is difficult for any human to understand it all, let alone act on it. So we must determine not only what is true—what is accurate—but also what is significant. Not all reality, all truth, is important to us, for how we live. Some is and some is not, and making the decision of what is significant is important.

Jesus focused on one aspect of significance—that of the house being set aflame. If you are living on a fault, and it is true that an earthquake was happening tomorrow, that is the most significant truth in your life. This becomes your most significant doctrine, your ideology, the basis of your action. This requires correct prediction, but Jesus was confident that he had that ability.

Jesus said that the current regime of priests and elders that ruled God’s people was just about over, and that the most important thing is to get in line with Jesus’ way of thinking, the up and coming ruler. Pilate didn’t want to understand this, and just ignored it by saying that ideology is impossible to determine. Jesus, however, knew what he was talking about. Pilate was to suffer for killing Jesus, and for his oppressive actions, for he would be sent back to Rome and then die in a shipwreck. The priests and elders were about to be destroyed by the Romans in less than 40 years, never to emerge as a power again. Their future was about to crash. If they had paid attention to Jesus and not killed this innocent man, perhaps God would have made a different decision. And so they killed Jesus. And Jesus’ truth came to haunt them—to destroy them, actually.

And this same choice of killing the innocent and being destroyed is a significant truth that catches up to every government, even this administration that is in office now. They torture gladly for their own “truth” but ignore Jesus’ truth that the ones who exalt themselves will be humbled and the ones who humble themselves will be exalted. Jesus’ truth inevitably catches up with everyone.

Life-Changing Books

What Books Have Changed Your Life? -Post on MennoDiscuss

I read a LOT of books, so it is difficult to decide. There have been some books that focus on concepts that have been very significant for me-- Perspectives On The World Christian Movement, My Utmost For His Highest, Christ and the Bible by John Wenham...

But the books that I think have changed my life are those that gave examples of people who I could be like. The most significant ones are:

The Mirror of Perfection-- This is a lesser-known life of Francis of Assisi that gives all of Francis, his qwerks and foibles and his eccentric nature, but also his unbelievable, radical devotion to the gospel of Jesus.

Speaker For the Dead-- This is actually a science fiction novel by Orson Scott Card, a mormon author. But his character of Andrew Wiggin (known in Ender's Game as "ender") is a mature, self-sacrificing, rational person who steps into conflict and creates peace.

Radical Faith-- This is a history by John Driver. It is an alternative church history that speaks about many individuals who have been considered heretics, mostly because they took the side of the poor and oppressed and took the gospel of Jesus seriously. All of them stood against the world, and the world was changed because of their stand.

Books for Peace

There are three books that I have found to be most important in my quest to be a peacemaker in this world of hatred and separation:

a. The Peacemaker by Ken Sande
This is a Biblical exposition of what it means to forgive and to reconcile. Its reading of the pertanent biblical texts is straightforward and its application is practical

b. The Anatomy of Peace by the Arbinger Institute
This is not only a fantastic book on peacemaking, but it is also the most entertaining, well-written book on peace, probably ever. Although written from a secular viewpoint, it talks about basic principles in seeing others not as objects or stereotypes, but as human beings.

c. The Lucifer Effect by Philip Zimbardo
This is a recent book by the psycologist of the Stanford Prision Experiment. It speaks about the social context in which good people could do very evil things, including torture and kill human beings. It also talks about how one can create a context in which to encourage heroism.

What are your most important books promoting peace (besides a Bible book, I suppose)?

Steve K

Should Christians Vote?

Should we as Christians, vote? Should we be involved in politics, on any level? -Gordon

Whether we vote or not is up to our own faith. Some insist that we must vote in order to be good citizens. I deeply question that on a number of levels, but I just want to talk about what the Bible says.

When we commit to the Lord, we commit to Jesus as our Lord, meaning, we are citizens of His kingdom and He is our only emperor, our only King (Phil 1). But the fact is, we have dual citizenship, just as Paul was able to use his rights as a Roman citizen, a Jewish citizen (member of the Temple) and a citizen of Jesus’ kingdom (Acts). He used all of these responsibilities to build up the kingdom of Jesus—remaining completely focused on who his real Lord was, and his secondary citizenships took a back seat to what the demands of the kingdom were. In fact, one could easily say that he abused his privileges as a citizen of Rome and of Judea in order to accomplish his goals in Jesus. Thus, we could use the privileges we have in the kingdoms of this age, which are soon passing away, to build up God’s kingdom.

However, I question the idea that voting is a good way to build up the kingdom. First of all, we vote on what others propose, the candidates that are pushed forward to us. There is not a single candidate that lives up to Jesus’ standard of leadership—a person who does not promote himself or his agenda, but only serves others. Every proposition is a form of the world’s answers to problems, not God’s, whether we are talking about preventing gay marriage or the latest bond. This doesn’t mean that we can’t vote, I am just saying that it doesn’t do anything for God’s kingdom if we do or if we don’t.

But politics, that is a different situation.

Jesus was deeply involved in politics. Entering Jerusalem on a colt was a political move. “Cleansing the temple” was a political move. His quote of Psalm 110 was a political love. The early church was deeply political. Even healings done in Jesus’ name was political.

We need to be political by warning the world, including the governments, that they will be judged according to their mercy and their merciless judging (James 2:13). They need to know that they will be destroyed if they don’t give justice to the poor (Psalm 82). They need to be informed that Jesus is Lord and they had better submit to Him (Psalm 2), thus not persecute the church.

And the church needs to be an example of what the kingdom of God will look like. A new kind of administration that emphasizes service. A new kind of economy that emphasizes charity. A new kind of sentencing that encourages repentance. A new kind of militia that emphasizes spiritual warfare. If we demonstrate God’s way, and we proclaim that this is how the whole world will soon be living, we will be clearly political. And clearly revolutionary. And just as clearly rejected.

Because martyrdom is the most powerful form of biblical political force. If we—innocents who have just said what the government doesn’t like— are killed by the government, then God will set aside that government. To be persecuted is the strongest spiritual and political statement. It is the primary one that God listens to.

Besides prayer, which is another political act. To pray the Lord’s prayer is a revolutionary prayer. To pray for God’s will changes the political landscape.

So, yes, we are certainly to be involved in politics. But voting? That’s a weak form of political action—the weakest in my opinion. I think that the government and media focuses on voting because it is easy, and makes everyone feel involved without actually making any changes. In my opinion.

Dangers of the Christian Life

"The matter is quite simple. The Bible is very easy to understand. But we Christians are a bunch of scheming swindlers. We pretend to be unable to understand it because we know very well that the minute we understand we are obliged to act accordingly. Take any words in the New Testament and forget everything except pledging yourself to act accordingly. My God, you will say, if I do that my whole life will be ruined. Herein lies the real place of Christian scholarship. Christian scholarship is the Church’s prodigious invention to defend itself against the Bible, to ensure that we can continue to be good Christians without the Bible coming too close. Dreadful it is to fall into the hands of the living God. Yes, it is even dreadful to be alone with the New Testament."

Soren Kierkegaard, “Kill the Commentators” in Provocations (Orbis, 2003)

The Economics of God's Underground Revolution

Dan Z wrote:
Would you mind expounding a bit on how you see the Kingdom (empire) of God interfacing with the world around it...in the sphere of politics perhaps...or in an economic sense.


Okay, now economics:

The majority of economics in the Bible is based on agriculture, and it seems that our modern economic system has little to do with that ancient system. However, Jesus has some economic priciples of the kingdom that offer up an alternative economic system.

First of all, any kingdom community is not to be based on money or possessions. The kingdom does not deny personal property, but each person that joins the kingdom is to surrender their personal use of the property. A new "disciple" or member of the revolutionary community is to surrender their personal use of their money and possessions and either give it away, walk away from it or make it available to all the other members of the community (Mark 10, Luke 12:33; Luke 14:33; Acts 4). This means that the obtaining of any new property is not to be for the individual, but for the community, but neither is it to be determined by the community how the individual is to assist the community, unles the individual gives the resources to the community leaders (Acts 4)

The work of the community is also alternative. The work of the whole community is to build the kingdom of God, which is not to build new buildings necessarily, but to spread the teaching of Jesus, to help the poor and to assist others in living out Jesus' new way of life. This will mean that some of the community work out in the world, while others depend on the generosity of those who obtain financial means or property. (Matthew 10) Those who depend on others are supposed to work with the gospel, giving freely what they have received from Jesus, both of the word and of the Spirit-- both the gospel and healings.

The means of support is completely mystical. It is God who directs the giver, it is God who provides for the worker of the kingdom, it is God who causes economic prosperity to occur. Because of this, among the community, there would be no poor among them, except due to persecutions. But this lack of poverty is dependent on the generosity of the wealthy, who have an obligation from God to make themselves economically equal with those who are poor and working to the best of their ability. Because all resources-- financial and spiritual-- come from God, then God is the one who rightfully directs the use of the resources, and He says to direct it to all needy, especially those among the household of faith. (Matthew 6; Luke 12; Acts 4; Deuteronomy 15; Galatians 6:3-10; I timothy 6)

This economic system also communicates to the world, and so is a means of preaching the gospel. If, in following Jesus' economic plan, the poor are cared for and made productive for the revolutionary community, then they can see it as a true alternative to their broken economic systems.

The Politics of God's Underground Revolution

Dan Z wrote:
Would you mind expounding a bit on how you see the Kingdom (empire) of God interfacing with the world around it...in the sphere of politics perhaps...or in an economic sense.

Ah, now you're asking me to REALLY expound. But I'll try to summarize.

Politics:
As Jesus recognized, the modern political world, even at its best, is a compromise between God's righteousness and human morality, applied to a society. Jesus never compromised on God's righteousness, but neither did he limit anyone from participating in God's righteousness. So what was his political plan?

First of all, he spoke of the means of obtaining God's righteousness in an individual and God's justice in a society as being repentance. This is a rejection of all compromise of God's righteousness in one's life and community and seeking God's way of purity and love only.

Then, he created a community which would live out this righteousness, justice, love, purity and shalom, and provide an example to the world what true justice would look like if it were lived out in the power of God.

And the community has a responsibility to interact with the world. This interaction, however, is not participation with the world's compromising political system, but prophetic speech. This is a straightforward cause-and-effect speech of the results of the injustices and unrighteousness that the world lives with, as well as support of the areas in which the world follows God's shalom. This speech will often mean rejection by the world or even persecution, but this is the kind of political interaction that Jesus told us to expect. And this acceptance of persecution is the way of the cross that enacts true political change.

The final aspect of political change we enact is through prayer. God is the greatest authority in the universe, and Jesus is at his right hand side. We, then, are lobbyists of the greatest political entity in the universe. We can enact great change for justice through prayer-- and praying the Lord's prayer is one of the greatest political acts of all time. It is prayer that will stop the terrorists-- not by killing them, but by changing their hearts. It is prayer that will save the lives of babies threatened by abortion, not by making it illegal, but by changing the hearts of doctors and women.

Well, I wrote too much on politics here. I'll cover economics in a new submission

Dialogue on the Lost Sheep, Luke 15

This discussion takes place under the topic, "99 +1" on MennoDiscuss:


Now all the tax collectors and the sinners were coming near Him to listen to Him.
Both the Pharisees and the scribes began to grumble, saying, "This man receives sinners and eats with them."

So He told them this parable, saying,

"What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?

"When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

"And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!'

"I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

AKing

Is it possible/beneficial to consider a passage in a context outside of its original context?
Barabbas

Jesus never says that we need to confess our sins before the mockers. We need to confess before God and before a brother or sister who is spiritual-- holy and gentle, according to Gal 6.

We can use a passage outside of the context to consider what God is speaking to us. We just can't use it for doctrine.

It is interesting that in the context, this passage is commanding the church to welcome sinners and the outcast into their churches, welcoming them and preparing them for repentance. So why don't we have more homosexuals, drug users, sex workers and alcoholics in our churches?

Steve K

Is it talking of receiving them into the churches or into our homes? The parable seems to me, to be speaking to the home.

Isn't the church is a place for those who are seeking or have found Christ, to worship, to be taught, to be "edified" per Eph 4? The ministry to the needy should be the "outreach". Can a person who is not in Christ really "worship"?

That is not to say that we should keep those folks out of the church, but the church meeting place is primarily for the saints, to prepare them to minister to the sinners, don't you think?

We have often opened our home to those in need, and brought them along with us to church as well, but is the meeting place really supposed to be an evangelistic meeting place?

In the first century, outsiders were welcome into the service, but asked to leave before the communion service, as it was only for the believers."Never be diverted from the truth by what you would like to believe."
If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. (Jn 8:31,32)
gcdonner

Why should it be an either/or decision? The welcome of the outcast is into our LIVES, not just a segment of it.

I am in agreement with the early believers that the Lord's Supper is only for those who are committed to the Lordship of Jesus, but we can discuss that more later.

But, as you quoted Ephesians 4, the term "edify" means "the building up toward" the telos, or "completion" in the Messiah. Well, different people are in different places in the building up process-- some need some basic repentance, others need deeper repentance.

And if we are going to exclude people from coming to church, then why don't we exclude the gossips, the porn watchers and the materialistic? These are also sins that keep one from God's kingdom, just as well as the ones above. The question is not whether we are sinners, the question is whether we are in the process of repentance.

Honestly, the only reason we would want to keep drug addicts out of church is because the middle class, who unfortunately runs the church, are uncomfortable with the cultural and moral choices of the outcast group. This has always been the case, and Jesus is asking-- nay, demanding-- that we overlook the cultural overlays of the outcast and welcome ANYONE who is repentant, fully forgiving them.

Steve K

What is the Outgrowth of the Kingdom?

Posted under "What Is The Kingdom of God?" in MennoDiscuss:

Given that Jesus is the core of the kingdom of God, what is understood as the outgrowth of that kingdom?

Jesus is the "son of God", which in the first century was a term for Caesar Augustus (as well as the Messiah)
Jesus is the "son of man", to which Jesus refers to Daniel, the emperor of the world, sitting at the right hand of God.
Jesus is the "son of David", which is another term for the messiah.
Jesus is the "christ", which is another term for the messiah, the God-given ruler of God's people, emperor of the Gentiles.
Jesus puts himself as the ruler of the temple (instead of the high priest)
Jesus puts himself as the new lawgiver (instead of Moses)

If Jesus is the "seed" of the kingdom of God, then the outgrowth of that kingdom is a new empire. Jesus planted the church, not to BE that new empire, but to be the seed of it. An underground revolutionary movement, with it's own laws (the law of Christ) its own judges and court (I cor 5-6), its own economy (Acts 4) and its own ruler (Jesus the Lord).

This kingdom is not to be found in its fullness until Jesus returns, but the church is still supposed to be in the world, living out this empire which is to come.